Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

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Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby Deacon » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:02 pm

Hope you all find this as interesting as I do.
For example:

Single wing
Wing T
Wishbone
Veer

From what I can tell, a lot of people are running a modified version of the single wing, whether they know it or not. We ran a modified version of the wing T with more T and less wing and both of these systems seem to adapt well to the six man game.

The wishbone and the veer, I don't see so much, although the veer would get my vote as the more adaptable of the two.

I'm personally interested in developing an offensive set that utilizes misdirection and ball faking if not flat out option football but two things always pop up
1) The need for an exchange (activating the ball carrier as a run threat)
2) The shortening of the line, making it easier for edge rushers to "cover" multiple threats.

I don't want to make this initial post too long, but would be happy to talk more about the single wing and the wing T.

If you're familiar with a system, what do you think are the best parts to keep for six man and what ends up on the cutting room floor?
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby Leman Saunders » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:11 pm

T
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby Deacon » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:43 pm

Leman Saunders wrote:T


The "T" is something I struggle with.

With both backs the same distance from the QB, it's harder to ball fake to one and then the other.

Direct attacks into the line always require angles and turns that don't hit as fast. At least not when you're trying to get a lead blocker in there.

One of our backs is always better at one thing or another and we end up better at running right or left for example. It gives the appearance of balance, but personnel unbalances it.

It's one of the harder sets for me to design passes out of (or plays period), although I have seen some nice drop back stuff on film lately that could help.

What we end up with is a series of dives, leads and sweeps that are fine until we run into a team that is equal or better. At that point we often abandon the formation and go to something different and that's just not something I want to be doing with a base formation.

I'm sure it's more of a mental block on my part and I'd love to get some pointers on running it, but it's there just the same.
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby GigemSooners » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:12 pm

Deacon wrote:
Leman Saunders wrote:T


The "T" is something I struggle with.

With both backs the same distance from the QB, it's harder to ball fake to one and then the other.

Direct attacks into the line always require angles and turns that don't hit as fast. At least not when you're trying to get a lead blocker in there.

One of our backs is always better at one thing or another and we end up better at running right or left for example. It gives the appearance of balance, but personnel unbalances it.

It's one of the harder sets for me to design passes out of (or plays period), although I have seen some nice drop back stuff on film lately that could help.

What we end up with is a series of dives, leads and sweeps that are fine until we run into a team that is equal or better. At that point we often abandon the formation and go to something different and that's just not something I want to be doing with a base formation.

I'm sure it's more of a mental block on my part and I'd love to get some pointers on running it, but it's there just the same.


T you cross-key from the end to the backside RB. 2-3, 3-3, 5-1.. all works. Just make the adjustments, read the play. Traps, blow them up on the line. Hope this helps.
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby shootthrees » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:53 pm

There are a couple of veer offenses in Coach C.H. Underwood's Sixman Football book, the Obrien Veer and Coach Vance Jones Option Offense out of the J-Bird set variations.
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby Deacon » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:25 pm

shootthrees wrote:There are a couple of veer offenses in Coach C.H. Underwood's Sixman Football book, the Obrien Veer and Coach Vance Jones Option Offense out of the J-Bird set variations.



Does he say anything about how to establish the pitch man as a run threat? Out of I or T formation getting a hand off before going into the veer (making the ball carrier a run threat) is pretty cumbersome.

Did he discuss a read on the play? Just giving it to the dive or the pitch is OK, but getting past an unblocked guy is a nice deal when you can get it.



Sorry for the questions, but a used copy of the book is currently $700 on Amazon.
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby Coach Roach » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:33 pm

We ran veer a bit and it worked like a charm. The key is the QB, his reads, and proper footwork, because it is a play that requires speed and execution.

We ran out of a base I formation. First read is fullback in the two hole. Next option is RE on an “option” out route (aka flag or out depending on where defender is), and the final read was the pitch. It has to be a quick play because lack of time for the pitch and the QB possibly getting sacked.

It’s a fun play to run
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby Deacon » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:33 pm

T you cross-key from the end to the backside RB.


Not familiar with this terminology.
Do you mean keying on gaps with match up advantages before the snap?
Does QB communicate a pre snap read or do you use a system like unmanned gap = target?
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby Coach Roach » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:38 pm

Deacon wrote:
T you cross-key from the end to the backside RB.


Not familiar with this terminology.
Do you mean keying on gaps with match up advantages before the snap?
Does QB communicate a pre snap read or do you use a system like unmanned gap = target?



Deacon,
Cross key means to key on your side end and cross key on the opposite RB, for example in the T. To clarify, out of a 2-3 defense, the left side corner keys on the opposing teams right end all the way through to the 3 back out of the T (RB lined up on the left side of their T).
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby Deacon » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:41 pm

Thank you coach.

Here's a link to a single wing series by a guy named Bruce Eien. It's eleven man, but i's pretty easy to see plays we're used to and how easy it cuts down to six man size.

http://coachsomebody.com/2014/10/bruce-eien-fat-formation/

Thanks to Coach Somebody for putting it together.
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby shootthrees » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:09 pm

Deacon wrote:
shootthrees wrote:There are a couple of veer offenses in Coach C.H. Underwood's Sixman Football book, the Obrien Veer and Coach Vance Jones Option Offense out of the J-Bird set variations.



Does he say anything about how to establish the pitch man as a run threat? Out of I or T formation getting a hand off before going into the veer (making the ball carrier a run threat) is pretty cumbersome.

Did he discuss a read on the play? Just giving it to the dive or the pitch is OK, but getting past an unblocked guy is a nice deal when you can get it.



Sorry for the questions, but a used copy of the book is currently $700 on Amazon.


Yes, both have reads for a triple option. For the O'Brien Veer, the "Man Under" Center becomes the Pitch Back after tossing the ball to the Veer "Quarterback" (Offset to the right of the "Man Under", his inside foot on the the centers right foot and 3-4 yards behind the "Man Under"). The "Full Back", depending on his speed is 3-5 yards behind the "Quarterback" and is the dive back for the veer. The Tight End is to the right of the Center with 1-4 yard splits and the Split End can be on either side 8-15 yards wide.

For the base veer play after the snap, the man under quickly tosses the ball to the QB while passing in front of him in an arching manner to become the veer pitch back. The QB turns toward the DE on the right to read the dive with the FB and continues the action as in the 11 man Veer or wishbone option.
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby shootthrees » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:02 pm

From the version by Coach Vance Jones, the formation is like the J-Bird with the "Man Under" acting as the pitch back after quickly giving the ball to the veer QB who is lined up just to his left. The FB/Dive Back is offset just like in the O'Brien Veer, but, a little closer to the LOS. The QB moves to the right down the LOS in order to put the ball in the belly of the FB and read the defensive end while the "Man Under" is arching to become the pitch back on the triple option. Both sets can be ran with 2 tight line man or with one end split to either side. There is a Youtube video of the O'Brien teams running that offense here: https://youtu.be/YByvyIMmccU

The video shows both the dive option and speed option to the left as well as some added miss direction plays.
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Re: Which of the old school systems work best in six man?

Postby Deacon » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:10 pm

Don't know why but I love the old footage. My recollection of '72 was a lot more colorful, though.

The last college guy I know of to run the single wing in a dedicated way was a guy named Keith Piper at Denison University. He held on until the mid 80's and you can find a fair amount of their film on Youtube. It's creative stuff and worth a look.
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